Curse

LifeInfusion · Jan 04, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by kodomo

so i didn't even get to read all of this guide before felt the people needed to be set straight.There are so many things wrong with whats being said about eles and some one needs to stand up for them. The way people are talking makes it sound like the increase to monsters armor is only for elemental damage but thats not true its across all the board playing on both ends(as war and ele) my normal ele build (which is earth) outputs as much or more damage then a war regardless of the buffs. Im not entirely sure if there were screen shots for the ele's damage output on the terrible example of the master of damage but if some one wants to test it out here are a few skills to use. {double dragon "By Urals Hammer" Glyph of Elemental Power and a few AoE fire skills} once we've done this maybe ill talk about why a competent earth ele is better if not as good as a war

Eles are decent in Normal mode, otherwise I would never have made one. Master of damage is 60 armor, which is 100% of listed damage. In Hard mode, you won't do as much damage as a warrior. Typically you do anywhere from 15 of 42 (36%) to 32 of 42 (76%). With 25% armor penetration you will see a maximum of 140 (16 air magic) on lightning orb.

Also read why eles don't do as much damage compared to melee: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...s-t113319.html

1. you need energy
2. you need attunements
3. you have aftercast AND cast times (which are always longer than 1 second, which is how long it takes for melee on IAS to attack)
4. it's not armor ignoring
5. you have recharges that tend to be more than the limit incurred by energy. If a 15 energy spell has 11.25 or more recharge (7 if you count an attunement), it's too long. If a 10 energy spell on attunement has more than 5 recharge, it's the same story. For a 5 energy spell on attunement, 2 seconds is the recharge limit incurred by energy.
6. As the only class with exhaustion, energy storage is wasted otherwise. A larger pool can be supplemented by a high energy swap

Quote:

you need around 10 pips of energy if you want to run an Elementalist who does anything other than spike.

This was pre-Searing Flames/Invoke Lightning/Blinding Surge (among other Factions+ Nightfall imbalances) but the point still holds.

Frozen Ele · Jan 07, 2011, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you don't know what your teammates are bringing, there is no reason to bring snares.

If your team has AoE -> then snares are conceivably useful (although they still aren't exactly great).
If your team has no AoE -> then snares are pretty useless.
If you don't know what your team has, would you really bring something that might be completely useless? It's the same as bringing Strength of Honour. If a teambuild has SoH, you would (should) be able to guess that there's at least one melee somewhere.
If there is no AoE in the team, your purported niche of "increased AoE efficiency" simply does not exist.

It is not one player's job to guarantee that all enemies will be dead in <10s, it is the job of the team.

I certainly hope that if someone's running a build that increases AoE efficiency, then there's AoE on the team, but the problem is that we will never know (what AoE it could be if at all). It could be Chaos Storm, RoJ, Fire Storm, Unsteady Ground, etc., but you will never know the exact skill(s). The best that we can hope for is that AoE will be used, but like I've said, I've seen people bring Searing Flames against Destroyers - you can never predict what people will run. Regardless of what other people run, there's AoE on the proposed builds, so although the niche might be smaller (increasing AoE for only one or two skills as opposed to a dozen), the niche still exists.

As for killing foes in less than 10s, I fully agree that it's not the job of one person to kill all the foes (well, there are exceptions, but we'll ignore those for now). The problem is: since we can't assume exactly what people will bring, we won't be able to tell exactly how much damage they'd be able to churn out, the only damage that we're sure of is the ele's damage. Thus, if the ele cannot deal enough damage to guarentee the foes will die in <10s, then we can't assume that they will die in <10s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

After I've killed the mob I move on to the next one. Don't complain about 20s downtime, you once said you're happy to cast out your high set with Mind Freeze. By the way 20s is more than enough time to aggro the next mob. The downtime is less than that of Maelstrom, but I don't see you dissing Maelstrom because of its recharge. Besides, AP makes sure there is no downtime.

I think you've missed my point. I'm arguing that if you're running skills like Aegis like you proposed on your builds, then their recharge makes it so that other, more quickly recharging skills with the same effect, are more persuable. Unless you have AP, Aegis will have a downtime of ~20s, whereas Blurred Vision will be down for ~3s, so unless you're committed to wait the extra 17s (which can add up to a lot of time in a VQ or mission), then you're better off with Blurred Vision. That was the vein the argument was in, so the arguments with Maelstrom/Mind Freeze are invalid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Here're your screenshots of GlyphSac Meteor Shower in Bjora Marches. This clearly isn't a H/H teambuild - careful aggro for GlyphSac Meteor Shower takes a player-controlled tank. My build wasn't very good either; it was completely thrown together in 10 seconds. Neither did I bother changing my teambuild to include Weaken Armour. But it worked. Watch carefully.

Screenshot 1: Now is the time when you use Meteor Shower. The targets aren't going to move. http://img714.imageshack.us/i/gw038z.jpg/

Screenshot 2: Who says Meteor Shower doesn't hit for >80 damage per tick? I didn't have Weaken Armour in the build, too. http://img405.imageshack.us/i/gw039h.jpg/

Screenshot 3: And the targets are still in the AoE 9s later. Without Deep Freeze. Note that all the targets caught in Meteor Shower are dead. With a player-controlled tank it's very possible to ball the entire mob, which would kill the entire mob in 9s. http://img826.imageshack.us/i/gw040u.jpg/

Well, I certainly see three groups - the caster group, a group of a few melee enemies, and then a second melee group. That fact that there's "clusters" or multiple sub-groups even with "careful aggro" only further validates and supports the use of multiple snares.

The reason that the foes stayed for 9s wasn't due to Meteor Shower, but because of the minions' bodyblocking.

Jeydra · Jan 07, 2011, 01:25 AM // 01:25

If you cannot predict what your allies are going to run, don't run Water. If you cannot predict what your allies are going to run you can't even be sure the Elementalist is carrying damage.

GlyphSac Meteor Shower should always be run with AP, so your argument about recharge is moot. Aegis is always better than Blurred Vision. There is no extra 17s downtime between mobs; if Aegis has a downtime (it usually does not) it's less than 10s - closer to 5s, even. And you should be able to survive that 5s without Aegis. If you think that it's down for an extra 17s between mobs, you seriously haven't been paying attention. I have no more comment until you actually try running Aegis yourself.

It wasn't careful aggro. I didn't have a player-controlled tank. For examples of true careful aggro, look at the video. That balls up the entire mob. I obviously cannot do that alone. Well more accurately I have done it alone before, playing ER Ele in SoO HM. But I obviously cannot do that and still have GlyphSac Meteor Shower.

If the minions bodyblocking can hold the foes for 9s, why even bother with Water Magic? Fact is, I held monsters in place for 9s without having to use Water Magic, all the while doing more damage than your best Water-based builds. What about your niche? What does your build do better than mine? I had EBSoH to really increase AoE efficiency. All your mitigation "advantage" amounted to nothing, because I didn't even take damage. The Warriors in that screenshot never got near Mhenlo. What, then, do you really do better?

@kodomo - if you can get a screenshot, I'll take a closer look. An unsupported Warrior against the MoD does over 130 DPS, just saying, so that's the target to beat.

Frozen Ele · Jan 11, 2011, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you cannot predict what your allies are going to run, don't run Water. If you cannot predict what your allies are going to run you can't even be sure the Elementalist is carrying damage.

Fair enough – you should be able to assume some source of AoE if running the build (even if it’s just the AoE on the Ele build), you just won’t know exactly how much and exactly what skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

GlyphSac Meteor Shower should always be run with AP, so your argument about recharge is moot.

The point about recharge is moot, but its use as a primary snare is still iffy. Deep Freeze increases snare efficiency more, is only one skill (vs the glyph and the spell), there’s always the problem of exhaustion with Meteor Shower, and you’d need a supplement snare with Meteor Shower to get it on Deep Freeze’s caliber, so Deep Freeze is superior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Aegis is always better than Blurred Vision. There is no extra 17s downtime between mobs; if Aegis has a downtime (it usually does not) it's less than 10s - closer to 5s, even. And you should be able to survive that 5s without Aegis. If you think that it's down for an extra 17s between mobs, you seriously haven't been paying attention. I have no more comment until you actually try running Aegis yourself.

Aegis always has a downtime of 17s. You might not be fighting in that time, but that doesn’t mean the downtime isn’t there. If mobs are closely spaced or the mobs break into multiple clusters, then you’ll be fighting when Aegis is down. With Blurred Vision, you won’t have such a dramatic downtime. Again, it’s most important that the melee foes miss/you block melee foes, so Blurred Vision isn’t far behind Aegis in functionality, plus it’s generally harder to remove a hex than an enchantment.

If you’re still hung up on this, go E/Mo, spec 9 in Prot, and replace Blurred Vision with Aegis. Either my build is better here (since your most recent build can't use it at all) or it's a wash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It wasn't careful aggro. I didn't have a player-controlled tank. For examples of true careful aggro, look at the video. That balls up the entire mob. I obviously cannot do that alone. Well more accurately I have done it alone before, playing ER Ele in SoO HM. But I obviously cannot do that and still have GlyphSac Meteor Shower.

So if you’re H/Hing, there'll be mob splintering into different clusters, which necessitates a second snare and proves my build better for H/H. Plus, you can’t always assume a player-controlled tank (if you’re PUGing, one might not show up) and even then, I’ve seen agro go wrong with PUG tanks, so it’s still best to use a second snare here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If the minions bodyblocking can hold the foes for 9s, why even bother with Water Magic? Fact is, I held monsters in place for 9s without having to use Water Magic, all the while doing more damage than your best Water-based builds. What about your niche? What does your build do better than mine? I had EBSoH to really increase AoE efficiency. All your mitigation "advantage" amounted to nothing, because I didn't even take damage. The Warriors in that screenshot never got near Mhenlo. What, then, do you really do better?

The minions themselves didn’t hold the foes for 9s, part of that was Meteor Shower, but they made it possible for the foes being held so long. Even so, we’re discussing options available to Elementalists, so minioning is out the window.

My build still increases AoE efficiency more than yours. With your build, you’re only increasing Meteor Shower’s efficiency by ~50% (vs. my AoE's efficiency increase of ~220% with my build). Plus, you don't have a second snare, so you can’t efficiently take on mob splintering, meaning your build pales in comparison to mine for H/H set-ups (with all the other reasons to use a second snare, my build is even better, H/H or not). Even in PUGs with your player-controlled tank, my build increases AoE efficiency more. Any way you face it, my build increases AoE efficieny more than yours, so it best fits that niche.

Support is far superior with my build – Maelstrom (disabling casters), additional snare benefits (agro control says “hi,” especially if you’re using H/H), Aegis/Blurred Vision, and priority knockdown – all things you don’t have. You might claim that this mitigation support doesn’t matter, but it’s still here and a criterion we’re evaluating builds on.

Jeydra · Jan 11, 2011, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Deep Freeze is evidently inferior to GlyphSac Meteor Shower because Meteor Shower kills the target(s) in 9s, but Deep Freeze doesn't (which is why you need another snare ...). Exhaustion provides a "downtime" of 30s, except Maelstrom causes exhaustion as well and you're still using it. The fact that GlyphSac Meteor Shower is two spells does not matter because we compare the sum total of the entire bar, not just one or two spells on it. Ether Renewal on its own is nothing spectacular. Ether Renewal + Prot Spirit + LA + Spirit Bond is something completely different.

If you say Aegis has a downtime of 17s, I'll point out that Maelstrom has a downtime of 20s. If you're not fighting during Aegis's downtime, why even care about it? If you have to fight when Aegis is down (not often), you don't also have to die. The teambuilds I'm used to running are perfectly capable of handling such drawn-out fights, e.g. in Vizunah Square, without Aegis. Those mobs aren't that dangerous.

Aegis is at its most powerful when you're against dangerous, shadowstepping melee opponents such as Charr Shadowblades in EotN that you (incidentally) cannot Blurred Vision. Aegis is also extremely strong if you are suddenly mobbed (mistakenly aggro'ed patrol, popups, etc). Against everything else Aegis is a luxury. Sure, if you have 30% DP then Aegis might be very helpful against 8-man Stone Summit mobs. But I plan not to get into those situations. I'll also point out that your teambuild should be able to score multiple kills in the 11s that Aegis buys you. If I can wipe a mob in the 9s of GlyphSac Meteor Shower, surely I should be able to wipe at least half a mob, diminishing its threat to near zero, with 11s of Aegis.

If you're H/H'ing you would be playing very much subpar by running Water, because one of the cardinal rules of H/H is that the player should always play for damage. The player has access to PvE skills that deal big damage. H/H do not.

You shouldn't care if mobs are splintering into different clusters if they don't hit the party at all. Look at the screenshots again. Well you might care that your AoE isn't hitting the entire mob, but that's not something you can achieve even if you have Water Magic. No, "minioning" isn't available to Elementalists, but we're looking at teambuild remember? That's why we even have "increasing AoE efficiency" on the table. Guild Wars is a team game, and there is no rule that says "all your team has to be Elementalists" (although even if there were such a rule you can run an Elementalist tank, lol).

Meteor Shower is at peak efficiency with my build because all its hits connected. It's not possible to increase its efficiency more even if the target is crippled, under Deep Freeze, under Crippling Anguish and under Mind Freeze all at the same time. That is what matters. Under the term "AoE efficiency" nobody should care if the target is snared 90%, snared 66%, snared 50%, snared 0% or even under "Fall Back!". What they should care about is whether all the hits connect. Which they did. I guess you could also care about whether or not those hits are dealing maximum damage, which they also did (thanks to BUH and EBSoH, although minus Weaken Armour).

If the mobs you face are unable to attack, do you think Blurred Vision matters? If the mobs you face are unable to hit the party - like in the screenshot - do you think Aegis or snares matter? I don't. It's about as important as having Frozen Soil when the mobs you're fighting have no resses. Since the mob was already unable to hit my team, mitigation support does not matter.

If you say your build is better than mine H/H I challenge you to post a screenshot of yourself clearing Forgewight HM with it. Be sure to include the /age. If you can beat my time (in fact I'd be quite impressed if you can return a time <40 minutes), I'll concede that Water has a niche. Until and unless you can do that, I'll follow Ensign's advice.

PS: Your build definitely improves with Aegis over Blurred Vision.

Frozen Ele · Jan 17, 2011, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Deep Freeze is evidently inferior to GlyphSac Meteor Shower because Meteor Shower kills the target(s) in 9s, but Deep Freeze doesn't (which is why you need another snare ...).

Invalid logic: Meteor Shower didn’t kill everything in 9s. Your team managed to kill them in 9s. There’s a big difference (it comes down to assuming teams); a team with Deep Freeze can kill the foe(s) in 9s too. Needing another snare is hinged on a vast pool of reasons, including mob splintering, etc., not just on the speed of killing things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Exhaustion provides a "downtime" of 30s, except Maelstrom causes exhaustion as well and you're still using it.

Exhaustion affects your build not mine. If you actually paid any attention to my build and looked at the skills there, then you’d see Glyph of Energy, which is specifically used to prevent exhaustion from Maelstrom. This way, you never have to worry about exhaustion on my build. Your build has exhaustion, on the other hand, which can be potentially detrimental. If you build too much exhaustion, because you’re using Meteor Shower on every cluster to provide the most AoE efficiency increase your build can muster, then you’re going to shut down to the point where you’re useless. You can wait the exhaustion out or keep fighting. With the former, you could spent over a half-an-hour waiting for exhaustion to end in a VQ or with the latter, you won’t be able to use Meteor Shower as often, meaning you won’t be able to provide the maximum AoE efficiency increase possible on your build. Not only does my build provide more of an increase to AoE efficiency than yours when yours is working at its best, but also to reach maximum efficiency on my build, you don’t need to spend the extra time waiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The fact that GlyphSac Meteor Shower is two spells does not matter because we compare the sum total of the entire bar, not just one or two spells on it. Ether Renewal on its own is nothing spectacular. Ether Renewal + Prot Spirit + LA + Spirit Bond is something completely different.

You need two skills (Meteor Shower and Glyph of Sacrifice) to do less than I do with one skill (Deep Freeze). This means you’ve got room for one less damage/support/other skill than I’ve got and far less build flexibility.

If we’re sticking to evaluating the entire bar, then you’ve got to compare my multiple snares versus your one snare and all the support I provide against your absence of support – making it clear my build is better (this also means that any skill-specific arguments you make are invalid, so bye-bye arguments against Maelstrom or Blurred Vision, etc.).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you say Aegis has a downtime of 17s, I'll point out that Maelstrom has a downtime of 20s. If you're not fighting during Aegis's downtime, why even care about it? If you have to fight when Aegis is down (not often), you don't also have to die. The teambuilds I'm used to running are perfectly capable of handling such drawn-out fights, e.g. in Vizunah Square, without Aegis. Those mobs aren't that dangerous.

Well, if we’re arguing about the bar in general then your argument against Maelstrom is completely invalid (see above). Also, you have no competitive alternative to Maelstrom so the argument here is invalid – it’s like comparing how quickly your apples grow versus how quickly my cotton grows, they’re used for different purposes so you can’t compare them. If you’re still hinged on Maelstrom’s recharge, cross-apply your argument about survival to it – you won’t die if it’s not up.

On another note, because you say it’s not important that Aegis is up 100% of the time, then it doesn’t matter that all attacks have a chance of being blocked. Therefore, using Blurred Vision to only cause the melee to miss is just as useful as Aegis. You just proved that in the grand scheme, Blurred Vision has the same practicality as Aegis, so you really don’t need the latter on my bar.

Your last point seriously cripples your case. If you’re arguing about drawn-out fights, then you’ve got problems with your build. First off, in places like Vizunah Square, there’ll be multiple mobs up at once, necessitating a second snare (my build is again better in this aspect). Second, if you’re firing off Meteor Shower seriously (to try to even start to compare with the AoE efficiency increase in my build), you’re going to rack up so much exhaustion then you’re functionality is going to wither and die. With no energy problems, I will realize the full potential AoE efficiency increase of my build while you’re sitting, waiting for exhaustion to end. My build is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Aegis is at its most powerful when you're against dangerous, shadowstepping melee opponents such as Charr Shadowblades in EotN that you (incidentally) cannot Blurred Vision. Aegis is also extremely strong if you are suddenly mobbed (mistakenly aggro'ed patrol, popups, etc). Against everything else Aegis is a luxury. Sure, if you have 30% DP then Aegis might be very helpful against 8-man Stone Summit mobs. But I plan not to get into those situations. I'll also point out that your teambuild should be able to score multiple kills in the 11s that Aegis buys you. If I can wipe a mob in the 9s of GlyphSac Meteor Shower, surely I should be able to wipe at least half a mob, diminishing its threat to near zero, with 11s of Aegis.

Ok, in the time that these foes can shadowstep to you, how useful is a TWO second cast going to be? In two seconds, they could pop to your monk, smile, then start cutting poor Mhenlo down. A ONE second cast (Blurred Vision) is going to be able to better protect your team. Even with mis-argoing/popping foes, it’s faster to use Blurred Vision than Aegis, so you’re better off with the former. Plus, if you’re running into an area with shadowstepping/popping foes, you should know. This way, you can be sure to place Blurred Vision appropriately.

Again, your last arguments only prove that Blurred Vision, on the large scale, is fine compared to Aegis, so you’re fine with taking the former.

Lastly, these Aegis vs. Blurred Vision arguments don’t even matter, since my build allows Blurred Vision to be swapped with Aegis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you're H/H'ing you would be playing very much subpar by running Water, because one of the cardinal rules of H/H is that the player should always play for damage. The player has access to PvE skills that deal big damage. H/H do not.

This doesn’t work out: “Rule” and “should”? If it’s a rule, then it’s never “should,” but rather “always/must”…

If you’re H/Hing with maximizing AoE efficiency in sight then by build is top-notch, the very best, the high-and-mighty exalted build to do so – not subpar. My build is only subpar with niches it’s not supposed to fill (it’s like saying an E/Mo healer/prot build is subpar for damage – it is, but that’s not its purpose). Even then, I still make use of powerful PvE skills – “YMLaD!” and EBSH (and another PvE skill if you following one of my builds’ variants).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You shouldn't care if mobs are splintering into different clusters if they don't hit the party at all. Look at the screenshots again. Well you might care that your AoE isn't hitting the entire mob, but that's not something you can achieve even if you have Water Magic.

If I’m increasing AoE efficiency (the purpose of the build), then yes, it matters if there’s splintering (multiple snares). The point isn’t about hitting every foe at once (even though Water snares, when used to agro, increase mob solidarity, meaning you will actually be able to hit more foes at once with my build, but that’s besides the point), but maximizing AoE efficiency. Unless you’re prepared to use Meteor Shower on every cluster of foes to be able to increase AoE (which will rack up exhaustion, killing your function altogether, meaning my build’s better), a second snare is the way to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No, "minioning" isn't available to Elementalists, but we're looking at teambuild remember? That's why we even have "increasing AoE efficiency" on the table. Guild Wars is a team game, and there is no rule that says "all your team has to be Elementalists" (although even if there were such a rule you can run an Elementalist tank, lol).

Since it’s not available to Elementalists (which we agree on), it shouldn’t be in this thread. We are not discussing teambuilds. Assuming what a team does/doesn’t have is invalid – I proved that a long time ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Meteor Shower is at peak efficiency with my build because all its hits connected. It's not possible to increase its efficiency more even if the target is crippled, under Deep Freeze, under Crippling Anguish and under Mind Freeze all at the same time. That is what matters. Under the term "AoE efficiency" nobody should care if the target is snared 90%, snared 66%, snared 50%, snared 0% or even under "Fall Back!". What they should care about is whether all the hits connect. Which they did. I guess you could also care about whether or not those hits are dealing maximum damage, which they also did (thanks to BUH and EBSoH, although minus Weaken Armour).

(I don’t know what you mean by “hits connected,” but I’m guessing it just means the amount of times that the AoE hits? Please help me understand what you mean.)

When you’re looking at how many times AoE hits, the snare is absolutely critical. If the foe is snared by 90%, it will take the foe 10 times longer to move out of the AoE range, meaning the 90% snare makes it so that the AoE will hit all of its advertised times. If the foe is under “Fall Back!,” it will move out of AoE range faster, meaning AoE will hit fewer times than it normally would had the foe not had the speed boost. Snares (especially snare potency) is directly related to the amount of AoE hits, which is fundamental to AoE efficiency.

Normally (saying from experience and testing), Meteor Shower only hits twice. If the foe(s) have a snare on them, then it takes the foe(s) longer to make it out of the AoE range, so the foe(s) will get hit the third time. Thus, Meteor Shower can be improved by using a snare.

As for each hit dealing maximum damage, that’s also important for increasing AoE efficiency. Unfortunately, BUH only increases the damage on the single person’s AoE, so it doesn’t have any sort of team-AoE buff, whereas EBSH and snaring do. What’s more is that snaring (hit-increasing measures in general) generally has more of an effect than the damage-increasing measures. If you’re hitting with Meteor Shower like in your screenshots for ~64 damage (pre damage buffs) with the normal amount of hits, then it’s only doing 128 damage per foe (baseline). With just BUH, it’s 160 damage. With just EBSH, it’s 158 damage. With just a snare, it’s 192 damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If the mobs you face are unable to attack, do you think Blurred Vision matters? If the mobs you face are unable to hit the party - like in the screenshot - do you think Aegis or snares matter? I don't. It's about as important as having Frozen Soil when the mobs you're fighting have no resses. Since the mob was already unable to hit my team, mitigation support does not matter.

If the foes are unable to hit you, why’d you bother bringing a monk?

You can’t assume that foes won’t attack/hit you (can’t assume minions); Blurred Vision matters. Foes can hit you with spells; Maelstrom matters. Snares matter, they increase AoE efficiency.

Support matters, that’s part of what we’re evaluating our two builds on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you say your build is better than mine H/H I challenge you to post a screenshot of yourself clearing Forgewight HM with it. Be sure to include the /age. If you can beat my time (in fact I'd be quite impressed if you can return a time <40 minutes), I'll concede that Water has a niche. Until and unless you can do that, I'll follow Ensign's advice.

Thank you for your offer, but clearing an area shows off the team build, not the individual build. The latter’s what we’re concerned with.

-----------

Face it, by build is better. We're evaluating builds on their ability to provide support, deal some damage, and produce the greatest AoE efficiency increase.

In terms of support, I provide:

Blurred Vision/Aegis (Take your pick) (Near melee shut-down)
Maelstrom (Near/full caster shut-down)
"You Move Like a Dwarf!" (Single target knock-down)
Other benefits from snaring (Agro, etc.) (from Deep Freeze, Ice Spikes, "YMLaD!")

You provide:

"Finish Him!" (Deep Wound and Cracked Armor to one foe with <50% health)

My build provides the most, and better, support, so my build is better.

In terms of damage, I provide:

Deep Freeze (mediocre damage)
Ice Spikes (mediocre damage)
"YMLaD!" (good damage)
Maelstrom (poor damage)

You provide:

Meteor Shower (good damage)
"Finish Him!" (good damage)
Liquid Flame (good damage)

Your build deals more damage than mine, but the goal was to provide some damage not max damage, so this point is a wash.

In terms of AoE efficiency increase, I provide:

Deep Freeze
Ice Spikes
"YMLaD!"
EBSH

You provide:

Meteor Shower
EBSH
"BuH!"

I uniquely have the potential to snare multiple clusters at once, provide constant snaring, and have a priority target snare. You uniquely have a self-buff. Deep Freeze is better than Meteor Shower (one skill vs. two, exhaustion, raw increase to AoE efficiency, size of AoE, etc.). If you're still unconvinced, look to the empirical percentages of AoE efficiency increase: ~50% (your build) vs. ~220% (my build). My build provides the greatest increase to AoE efficiency, so my build is better.

Overall, my build is wins on support and increasing AoE efficiency. Damage is a wash. Therefore, my build is better.

HigherMinion · Jan 18, 2011, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Fire is bad. Water is bad. Water has a better snare imo than fire.

end discussion by saying both elements are bad and can be replaced by Tryptophan Signet. Even AP-Fire isn't going to kill anyone by itself.

Jeydra · Jan 19, 2011, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Thank you for your offer, but clearing an area shows off the team build, not the individual build. The latter’s what we’re concerned with.

Thank you for your reply. I'm afraid that, per my last post, I won't change my mind until you post concrete evidence. I have informed you exactly what kind of evidence I am looking for. Per my last post, I will follow Ensign's advice until then:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

@above - considering how powerful the other PvE skills are (YMLAD, FH, EVAS, EBSoH, BUH, etc etc etc) would you seriously consider bringing Tryptophan Signet?

Frozen Ele · Jan 22, 2011, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Thank you for your reply. I'm afraid that, per my last post, I won't change my mind until you post concrete evidence. I have informed you exactly what kind of evidence I am looking for. Per my last post, I will follow Ensign's advice until then.

I’m so sorry, but your test, and therefore evidence, are invalid – they are not representative of the builds we’re discussing. If all you can muster up against my build is an invalid test and name-calling, then I'm afraid you can’t stand up to my empirical observations and reason. It’s clear to everyone here that my build fills a niche and is the best build to do so.

Oh, I think you forgot about this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

This isn’t just rude and offending, its borderline hostile. From this, it seems you’re more concerned about who’s saying what instead of what they’re saying; arguments should be weighed on their own merits, not those of the author (nice way of putting it Xenomortis). You certainly don’t see me try to badmouth you; keep this place an open bazaar for new ideas, not old prejudices.

If this discussion has really resorted to you name-calling, then count me out – it only proves that logic and reasoning won’t work in your favor.

Life Bringing · Jan 22, 2011, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

It’s clear to everyone here that my build fills a niche and is the best build to do so.

Define everyone.

Jeydra · Jan 22, 2011, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

I’m so sorry, but your test, and therefore evidence, are invalid – they are not representative of the builds we’re discussing. If all you can muster up against my build is an invalid test and name-calling, then I'm afraid you can’t stand up to my empirical observations and reason. It’s clear to everyone here that my build fills a niche and is the best build to do so.

Perhaps I did muster "an invalid test" and "name-calling", but you need I remind you that you ... mustered nothing? Just a whole lot of words, including something as remarkably stupid as saying "Meteor Shower only hits twice" even after I showed you screenshots of monsters staying in Meteor Shower for a full 9 seconds without using a snare. They could've been under "Fall Back!" and they would still have stayed in Meteor Shower for 9 seconds.

Yeah, count me out. I'm too tired these days to argue with you. As Ensign once said, every time I hit the reply button, I think of my [his] signature and wonder, why bother?

Frozen Ele · Jan 22, 2011, 04:38 AM // 04:38

When I referenced "everyone," I may have certainly made a mistake if you disagree about the build filling a niche. I thought that the empirical AoE efficiency increase values (EAEI values, for short) (AP MS build's value of 50% vs. the build I presented's 220%) and skill-by-skill comparison that I "mustered up" would have been plenty convincing/proving though.

With MS, I agreed that you got it to hit for all 3 times, but said that the reason that you got all 3 hits in was because of minions, not because of MS alone (which you seemed to agree to/never contested). On stupid remarks, you said that "Under the term 'AoE efficiency' nobody should care if the target is snared 90%, snared 66%, snared 50%, snared 0% or even under 'Fall Back!'" but I guess that doesn't matter much now.

It still stands that my build best fills the presented niche, as the skill-by-skill comparison and EAEI values between our builds reveal.

Life Bringing · Jan 22, 2011, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Ele

When I referenced "everyone," I may have certainly made a mistake if you disagree about the build filling a niche. I thought that the empirical AoE efficiency increase values (EAEI values, for short) (AP MS build's value of 50% vs. the build I presented's 220%) and skill-by-skill comparison that I "mustered up" would have been plenty convincing/proving though.

With MS, I agreed that you got it to hit for all 3 times, but said that the reason that you got all 3 hits in was because of minions, not because of MS alone (which you seemed to agree to/never contested). On stupid remarks, you said that "Under the term 'AoE efficiency' nobody should care if the target is snared 90%, snared 66%, snared 50%, snared 0% or even under 'Fall Back!'" but I guess that doesn't matter much now.

It still stands that my build best fills the presented niche, as the skill-by-skill comparison and EAEI values between our builds reveal.

Actually, what we've proven here is that a MM blows the ele out of the water when it comes to keeping enemies in the same spot, as well as in damage AND support. Interesting how that worked out, eh?

Frozen Ele · Jan 22, 2011, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Actually, what we've proven here is that a MM blows the ele out of the water when it comes to keeping enemies in the same spot, as well as in damage AND support. Interesting how that worked out, eh?

For a MM to work, you need minions, meaning you need corpses, which unfortunately some areas are void of (proving that at least in these areas, eles fill the niche best), but beyond that, I've noticed that MM's are less consistent/dependable in keeping foes in the same spot. If there are too few minions, too many foes, foes too spread out, etc. (such that the minions cannot adequatly body-block) then they may not keep the foes in the same place at all. For this reason, running snares, especially multiple of them, proves more useful since they are more reliable.

Next, this isn't an option available to Elementalists, so Water still proves to be the best in our discussion.

There are probably other points that I'm not thinking of right now (brain fried) so this likely isn't a comprehensive list.

EDIT: Already thought of another point (or two), lol. Kinda goes hand-in-hand with reliability, but there's also the factor of control. As a MM you can't control which minion goes where and does what, so you can't tell them to go over to that cluster while your teams bombs it with AoE. Snares are controllable, so you will never have that problem with them. Also, minions generally go for melee, meaning that you can't focus on casters with AoE first if you want the minions to keep the foes stationary. Running snares, especially multiple ones, gives you the control to focus on whichever cluster(s) you want for AoE efficiency increase (running multiple snares can allow you to multi-task with the AoE).

ElnoreVarda · Jan 22, 2011, 12:29 PM // 12:29

This "AoE efficiency" you keep talking about is a joke. Unless you make tight balls against large mobs, it doesnt matter at all. As a matter of fact, most direct damage spells are worthless, unless you use insta-kill spikes.

For general play, multiple snares=bad, Metstorm=bad; almost everything elementalists have is bad. If you want to bring ele skills, bring eruption, maelstrom (and deepfreeze/churning if you like that) with AP. Dont bother speccing into earth or water because you wont deal damage anyway.

If someone is going to use idiot arguments like "but mabye i dont bring that" , "but it can fail", "its not what elementalists do", "i dont use X because of Y", "I did Z with this build" or similar intentionally disruptive and non-contributing arguments, consider just not posting instead, please.

AndrewSX · Jan 22, 2011, 01:42 PM // 13:42

^Almost agree with ElnoreVarda.
Also, i think that you missed something: the Frozen's and Jeydra's builds simply aren't comparable, saying "Mine is better than yours". They're just designed for different purpose.
At least imho.

skyliner · Nov 22, 2011, 03:37 AM // 03:37

My main character is an ele. I've been playing since 2007 and I can attest that compared to other professions elementalists are vastly inferior.
Long recharge time+ long cast time+ armor dependent damage = mediocre DPS, at best.

The AP build you post here is indeed very efficient, however if your Ebon Vanguard/Norn rank is not high enough (at least 8), an Invoke lightning build is superior.
I personally use:
E/any

Quote:

This deals extremely efficient AoE damage thanks to intensity. A very understated skill, but powerful without measure.

Also, the discussion about water magic is pointless. Water magic is without a doubt inferior to everything else. In theory the arguments the person defending WM provides, sound very convincing , but in reality the scenarios depicted by him never ever occur. The AI doesn't behave that nicely....
However, to the OP I have to say; I have a niche that water magic fills immensely well:

E/A

Quote:

This build is deadly, I repeat DEADLY. It is not only fun, but effective. You'll be killing stuff faster than you can blink.
It is very fragile though. If your enchantments are removed you are dead and on occasions ( specially when facing Edenial mesmers) you can run out of energy.

InStars · Nov 22, 2011, 10:40 AM // 10:40

I know one good combination for E/R

Use Natural Stride with Stone Striker, combined with Geomancer's Insignias - you get good energy management and ability to tank and run faster!

Jeydra · Nov 22, 2011, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Share the attributes you use on that bar skyliner? I'll try them out myself.

@above - if you wanted to do that, why wouldn't you use Stoneflesh Aura + Kinetic Armour + Dash, or any of the array of defensive Earth skills out there (Obsidian Flesh, Mantra of Earth + Stone Striker, etc)?

InStars · Nov 22, 2011, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Share the attributes you use on that bar skyliner? I'll try them out myself.

@above - if you wanted to do that, why wouldn't you use Stoneflesh Aura + Kinetic Armour + Dash, or any of the array of defensive Earth skills out there (Obsidian Flesh, Mantra of Earth + Stone Striker, etc)?

Kinetic + Dash eats energy, while Natural Slide + Stone Striker gives energy (alot)

And you can't have Dash + Mantra as ele, since you can't have 2 secondaries like some overpowered War in Kryta mobs ^^

I use Natural Slide over Mantra when I need that nice movement speed increase, i mean this skill is like 2 in 1 - you move faster and gain alot energy.